is it time for the women in America to stage a walk out?

[AK14]

Haha, You’re cool.

Share This

[redblack]

AK14: what do you mean, “why not?”

why do you need to know what transpires between a pregnant woman and her doctor?

or her god, for that matter?

Share This

[AK14]

Redblack:I’m making a moral claim about the “wrongness” of abortion that you have confused with a “preference claim.” I believe that abortion is wrong because it takes the life of a defenseless child. I have made an objective, moral claim. You have ignored my evidence rather than refute it and responded with a subjective, preference claim, that is simply a matter of taste (yours). Basically you’ve stated that it’s up to you to decided what is right or wrong, a personal preference. You’ve responded with your moral relativism which is flawed and self-refuting as you have tried to force your views on me.

Share This

[redblack]

AK14: i don’t agree with either your morality or your assertion that i’m forcing my views on you.

i don’t want or need to know about your wife’s uterus or what goes on in there. it’s not my business.

i would appreciate it if you would show my wife the same respect.

why do you want or need to force your beliefs on her?

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by redblack.

Share This

[AK14]

Again, you ignored my moral claim, changed the subject by accusing me of something that I didn’t do, and brought my wife and your wife into the conversation. That is unfortunate and immature.

Share This

[JanS]

you have no more moral claim that anyone else…good grief. I was told the other day that because I did not believe what she believed, I am an immoral person. And there you go, taking what you think is the high road by calling someone immature and unfortunate…WTH? You can believe what you want. You have no right to force it on someone else. And, as a woman (past child bearing age now) you and your beliefs have no right to regulate what any woman can and cannot do with her body. That is between her, her god , if she chooses to believe in one,and her doc. Period.

Share This

[JanS]

and , lastly, AK14…if you do not believe in abortion, then don’t get one. Oh, wait…

you can’t get pregnant, can you…

Share This

[redblack]

yes, i ignored your moral claim. it’s immaterial to the conversation. it doesn’t matter whether an embryo has rights or not. make all the laws you want, but in order to find out if a woman has had an abortion, you have to violate her right to privacy.

my morality says that that is wrong.

Share This

[JoB]

AK14

and there’s the root of the problem
you somehow think your moral stance trumps the legal stance
you think it’s your right to intrude on other people’s privacy to make decisions for other people about what kind of responsibilities they assume..
but think we should stay out of your private life?

as for the study you cite…
you seem to think that cherry picking statistics from one study outweighs the reality accumulated outcome statistics..

and if your own comments on infant mortality are any indication you have little or no respect for any human life except that which is in utero..

so let’s be clear.. this isn’t about morality.. it’s about controlling women and their opportunities…

Tell me.. how respectful is that?

• This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by JoB.

Share This

[melissa]

1. The AAUW is not a feminist organization, per se, except insofar as it supports women in academia and acts on the principle that women should be treated equitably.
2. The study does NOT show that “it’s about choices, not discrimination”.

Share This

[skeeter]

Redblack, I hear what you are saying about privacy. And forcing of beliefs. The concept I struggle with is determining the point at which the state has an interest in the fetus/baby (choose whichever term.) It just seems sort of arbitrary that the state has an interest in a three day old baby. But the state does not have an interest in a developed fetus.

I agree that religion and morality are meaningless in this debate. Everyone has their own morality code or religious belief. The only issue in my mind is determining the point at which the state has an interest.

Share This

[AK14]

JanS: I believe murder is wrong, lying is wrong, and stealing is wrong. Those are moral claims. I simply believe abortion is wrong as well because it takes the life of an innocent child. We have all done immoral things in our lives, I’m not judging anyone. I called Redblack immature and unfortunate, not because of his/her beliefs, but because this person brought my wife into the conversation which was inappropriate. It’s something they can type from behind the safety of their computer but never would’ve said to my face. Their beliefs had nothing to do with it. You’re right, I can’t force anyone to believe what I believe. I’m fine with that. I was asked a question earlier and was simply stating why I believe the way I do. You are also correct in saying that what a woman does is ULTIMATELY between her and her God.

RedBlack and JoB: Like I stated earlier, if abortion is in fact killing an innocent child, then privacy doesn’t matter. Imagine that a woman has a two-year-old in front of her. May she kill him or her as long as the killing is done in the privacy of the bedroom? Of course not. Why not? Because the child is a human being. If the unborn are also human, they should not be killed in the name of privacy any more than we’d kill a toddler for that same reason. Of course you will respond that killing a toddler and killing a fetus are two different things, like comparing apples with oranges. But that’s the issue isn’t it? Are the unborn human beings, like toddlers? That’s the one issue that matters. We can’t escape it. JoB responded by saying viability outside of the womb is what makes determines humanity. I responded by showing that viability/dependency is not determined at a specific time period and depends on things like access to doctors and medical technology. Many people are dependent on machines, doctors and medicine outside of the womb, can we kill them too? So when is it okay to kill a child in the womb? 1 week, 2 weeks, 2 months, 8.5 months? You see the issue is not about forcing morality; it’s not about privacy; it’s not about economic hardship; it’s not about physical disabilities; it’s not about unwantedness. The issue is reduced to one question: What is the unborn?

JoB and Melissa: JoB responded to the statistics and studies that I (and Melissa) provided with no studies or stats of her own to prove her point but only to say that they were cherry picked with no proof that this occurred. This is a very ineffective, amateurish way to prove a point or display your reasoning. Melissa, did you not read the AAUW link from the Huffington post? That’s exactly what it said! Simply saying the study does not show that “it’s about choices, not discrimination” again provides no evidence to back up your position. The problem with having these types of conversations is the lack of evidence people use to back up their position(s) because they care more about feelings than facts. When people use evidence it is much easier to listen and attempt to understand differing points of view, which I have no problem with.

What it comes down to is your moral relativism. By subscribing to this viewpoint, it is impossible to say that anything is wrong, including my supposed “intolerance.”

I am finished. Thank you for the delightful conversation. You may now go back to your whining, I mean “protests”.

Share This

[JTB]

AK14 you are misusing and intermingling a number of layperson’s terms for an independently living human such as child and infant when at times you really are referring to an embryo or fetus.

If your research of embryology leads you to believe medical science considers a human fetus to be a “child” then you simply haven’t understood the material you have encountered. In terms of human development, a child doesn’t exist in the womb; it follows infancy.

It’s important to retain accurate terminology when discussing the stages of human development in order not to foster confusion or erroneous conclusions. For instance, if you depart from accurate medical terminology, you might describe a pregnant woman as a “host” and her fetus as a “guest.” Of course that raises the question of how and when a host might decide they are unwilling of unable to entertain a guest when time and circumstances have altered the original conditions of the occasion; an unexpected illness, a pressing emergency, a guest turned belligerent, and such.

I presume what you really mean when saying you believe there is a child in the womb is that the the embryo or fetus is human. No one is disputing that. What is at issue is whether or at what point it is viable as a living being, a neonate in medical terms. If you want to impose a different classification on the fetus in order to rationalize a standard of ethics this society and legal system does not believe applies to all individuals apart from choice, you are either being intellectually dishonest or are simply confused and believe your moral values apply to others who don’t share your belief system or irregular reading of embryology.

Share This

[redblack]

AK14: i’m sorry you feel the need to check out, and with a cheap shot. so, in that spirit, i’ll just say thanks for the conversation and i’ll let you go back to apologizing for a megalomaniacal creep of a president-elect.

“I called Redblack immature and unfortunate, not because of his/her beliefs, but because this person brought my wife into the conversation which was inappropriate.”

we have a bingo! now, apply that to all the women who aren’t your wife.

“It’s something they can type from behind the safety of their computer but never would’ve said to my face.”

i certainly would say that to your face, although i write more eloquently than i speak. i honestly believe that what transpires between a woman and her doctor is not your business, just as it’s not my business – or premera’s, the catholic church’s, or the governments’ – and i’m not ashamed of that belief.

and it just so happens that the right to privacy is the very crux of roe v wade that keeps abortion legal. hopefully it continues to stand as law, and that the procedure can be performed safely in a qualified medical facility.

by the way, i was born with an XY chromosome pair. you can safely call me he/him.

Share This

[JoB]

AK14

“if abortion is in fact killing an innocent child, then privacy doesn’t matter. ”

i don’t know what part of a fetus is the possibility of a child and not a child you can’t understand… but apparently it’s something you choose not to understand.

if a fetus was the promise of a child 20% of pregnancies would not end in spontaneous miscarriage before the 22 week.. and that statistic includes only those miscarriages for which women seek medical attention. Most experts believe the actual number is far larger since a woman may not even notice the difference between a skipped period or two followed by an unusually heavy period and an actual miscarriage .. and many may choose for a multitude of reasons not to seek medical care or to report a miscarriage even though they are aware it is happening.

Now you would think based on what you believe that a woman would be horrified by what she finds in her discharge when she spontaneously aborts but having stood over that particular discharge myself i can tell you that even though i knew the promise of pregnancy had once again ended.. i did not find a child.

calling the possibility of a child a child may make the semantics of your argument work..
but it doesn’t reflect reality.

Share This

[JoB]

AK14

your characterization of the conclusions of a report based on one aspect of that report are as inaccurate as your labeling of the organization that produced the report as a feminist organization.

i suggest you go back and read the report in it’s entirety.. as context really does matter.

Share This

[JKB]

When you all settle this one, would you go visit Syria and perhaps Israel?

Share This

[redblack]

JKB:

no.

Share This

[JoB]

JKB
it’s obvious that there is far too much work to be done here

Share This

[HMC Rich]

OK. Go. I will miss you but make your point. See ya. Many things won’t work right with you gone. Leave the kids please.

Share This

[redblack]

come on, rich. it’s just one day. surely you can pack a lunch or two and wash some dishes. :P

the fact that you got a little miffed means you’re thinking about it, anyway, and that’s a good start.

Share This

[JoB]

thanks redblack
i needed that ;-)

Share This

[redblack]

jo: you’re welcome. i was liberated a long time ago. by my mom. who taught me to do my own laundry when i was 8.

fortunately i have my own bathroom, and i’ll clean it when i’m good and damned ready.

Share This

[mark47n]

While this kind of conversation can be tedious, especially in light of the fact that the wage gap issue has been considered to be real by a congressional investigation, you know, a source that would be considered credible rather than a .com that is self-serving like the national review. you should generally stick with .edu, .orgs or .gov).

. It states pretty clearly i the highlights that there is a wage gap. I’ll refrain from posting a pile of links regarding this that come from appropriate sources but they are out these in quantity.

As to abortion, a touchy subject at best, as the old saw goes, if you don’t like them don’t have one. Also, to call some one pro-life is preposterous and a great pice of propaganda as the other side of the issue must be pro abortion. Pro choice means that the right the CHOOSE is at issue. That right is protected under the constitution and is settled law that even conservative Supreme Court justices refused to touch. If they did it would make the entire Constitution subjective and subject to the political winds of the day. Of course, what is protected today could be stripped of protection tomorrow…like your right to freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of association, the freedom of religion and such, and that’s just the 1st amendments, we haven’t gotten into the other, what, 25+ amendments.

But I digress. The pro-choice folks (not anti-choice, see above comments) are advocating for retaining that darn right to not have your views/morals imposed on their bodies so that women aren’t baby factories and don’t have to seek back alley abortions as they did for a century and risk sepsis and death, which happened a lot. For the record aborting a pregnancy goes back to, I don’t know, they stone age. There are many herbal medicines that can induce abortion.

Share This

[JoB]

redblack..
hubby has the same attitude towards his bathroom. unfortunately, i am ready to clean it long before he is :(

Share This

[Author]

Posts